[jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
11 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Simone Bordet-3
Hi,

with Jetty 9.2.x series minimum requirement of JDK 7, and Jetty 9.3.x
and 9.4.x series minimum requirement of JDK 8, we are thinking of
making JDK 11 the minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x.

With the rapid pace the JDK is released, by the time we stabilize and
complete the work on Jetty 10.x there are good chances that JDK 12
will be out already.

JDK 11 as minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x will also allow us to
clean up the codebase, drop JDK 8-only modules such as those for ALPN
on JDK 8, and use the JPMS Module APIs to explore new ways to deploy
web applications using JPMS modules.

Furthermore, JDK 9 and JDK 10 are basically already unmaintained, even
by OpenJDK vendors such as Oracle, Azul, RedHat, etc.

Now that JDK 11 is released officially, we think it's going to be the
main version people will use from now onwards, so it makes sense for
Jetty 10.x to have as minimum requirement JDK 11.

We post this email to welcome any feedback from the Jetty Community
about this decision.
If you think JDK 11 is a too strict minimum requirement for Jetty
10.x, speak now.

Webtide is - as always - supporting the Jetty project and customers
that want to move to newer Jetty versions and JDK versions.

Cheers
--
Simone Bordet
----
http://cometd.org
http://webtide.com
Developer advice, training, services and support
from the Jetty & CometD experts.
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Mark Mielke
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 9:17 AM Simone Bordet <[hidden email]> wrote:
with Jetty 9.2.x series minimum requirement of JDK 7, and Jetty 9.3.x
and 9.4.x series minimum requirement of JDK 8, we are thinking of
making JDK 11 the minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x.

My understanding is that JDK 8 and JDK 11 are "Long Term Support" releases. JDK 9 and JDK 10 are more like previews for what JDK 11 would become. In the case of JDK 8, I also believe it has reduced support in January, 2019 in that business are expected to either pay for JDK 8 support (if they aren't already), or they will lose access to updates, which means that Oracle is pushing all Java users up to JDK 11 aggressively.

I think targeting JDK 8 as minimum for currently active releases, and targeting JDK 11 for minimum for the next release makes perfect sense. I expect you will hit resistance from people unwilling to move forwards, however.

--
Mark Mielke <[hidden email]>


_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Lord Buddha
Maybe if businesses are willing to pay Oracle for JDK 8 support, they may pay for Jetty LTS support.



On Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 10:50 AM Mark Mielke, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 9:17 AM Simone Bordet <[hidden email]> wrote:
with Jetty 9.2.x series minimum requirement of JDK 7, and Jetty 9.3.x
and 9.4.x series minimum requirement of JDK 8, we are thinking of
making JDK 11 the minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x.

My understanding is that JDK 8 and JDK 11 are "Long Term Support" releases. JDK 9 and JDK 10 are more like previews for what JDK 11 would become. In the case of JDK 8, I also believe it has reduced support in January, 2019 in that business are expected to either pay for JDK 8 support (if they aren't already), or they will lose access to updates, which means that Oracle is pushing all Java users up to JDK 11 aggressively.

I think targeting JDK 8 as minimum for currently active releases, and targeting JDK 11 for minimum for the next release makes perfect sense. I expect you will hit resistance from people unwilling to move forwards, however.

--
Mark Mielke <[hidden email]>

_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev

_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Mark Mielke


On Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 12:18 AM Lord Buddha, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Maybe if businesses are willing to pay Oracle for JDK 8 support, they may pay for Jetty LTS support.

Probably also unpopular but I'm going to add my vote of support for such an idea.

Once Java 8 reaches its first end of life phase in January, 2019 it technically becomes more effort to support, and anybody who can't move forwards should expect to pay for continued support of an end of life configuration. 

This allows people to choose which is more important... Staying on the old release and paying for extended support, or moving forwards and still being able to have a no license cost option available.

The optics of this might be bad enough that you might want to only announce this now, and enact it by next year or 2020 whenever Java 8 is no longer available to end users without a contract, but the idea of aligning the free (but still patched publicly) Jetty option with the free (but still patched publicly) Java options makes sense to me. 



On Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 10:50 AM Mark Mielke, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 9:17 AM Simone Bordet <[hidden email]> wrote:
with Jetty 9.2.x series minimum requirement of JDK 7, and Jetty 9.3.x
and 9.4.x series minimum requirement of JDK 8, we are thinking of
making JDK 11 the minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x.

My understanding is that JDK 8 and JDK 11 are "Long Term Support" releases. JDK 9 and JDK 10 are more like previews for what JDK 11 would become. In the case of JDK 8, I also believe it has reduced support in January, 2019 in that business are expected to either pay for JDK 8 support (if they aren't already), or they will lose access to updates, which means that Oracle is pushing all Java users up to JDK 11 aggressively.

I think targeting JDK 8 as minimum for currently active releases, and targeting JDK 11 for minimum for the next release makes perfect sense. I expect you will hit resistance from people unwilling to move forwards, however.

_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Guillaume Maillard
In reply to this post by Simone Bordet-3
Hi,

Could you eloborate on technical things related to JDK11 ?
As far I know, the Jetty core doesn't require a big number of "things" from the JDK.

A lot of deployment (as ours) use Jetty as embedded webserver and simply implement handlers.
Why should we switch all our code/build to JDK11 in such cases if no technical reasons could justify it?

Best regards,

Guillaume




Le mer. 26 sept. 2018 à 15:17, Simone Bordet <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi,

with Jetty 9.2.x series minimum requirement of JDK 7, and Jetty 9.3.x
and 9.4.x series minimum requirement of JDK 8, we are thinking of
making JDK 11 the minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x.

With the rapid pace the JDK is released, by the time we stabilize and
complete the work on Jetty 10.x there are good chances that JDK 12
will be out already.

JDK 11 as minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x will also allow us to
clean up the codebase, drop JDK 8-only modules such as those for ALPN
on JDK 8, and use the JPMS Module APIs to explore new ways to deploy
web applications using JPMS modules.

Furthermore, JDK 9 and JDK 10 are basically already unmaintained, even
by OpenJDK vendors such as Oracle, Azul, RedHat, etc.

Now that JDK 11 is released officially, we think it's going to be the
main version people will use from now onwards, so it makes sense for
Jetty 10.x to have as minimum requirement JDK 11.

We post this email to welcome any feedback from the Jetty Community
about this decision.
If you think JDK 11 is a too strict minimum requirement for Jetty
10.x, speak now.

Webtide is - as always - supporting the Jetty project and customers
that want to move to newer Jetty versions and JDK versions.

Cheers
--
Simone Bordet
----
http://cometd.org
http://webtide.com
Developer advice, training, services and support
from the Jetty & CometD experts.
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev

_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Joakim Erdfelt-8
Java 11 brings in TLS/1.3 for the first time.

It also has many more improvements with regards to TLS overall.

And a very nice GC.

Jetty has also been exploring / experimenting with JPMS.

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 9:39 AM Guillaume Maillard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Could you eloborate on technical things related to JDK11 ?
As far I know, the Jetty core doesn't require a big number of "things" from the JDK.

A lot of deployment (as ours) use Jetty as embedded webserver and simply implement handlers.
Why should we switch all our code/build to JDK11 in such cases if no technical reasons could justify it?

Best regards,

Guillaume




Le mer. 26 sept. 2018 à 15:17, Simone Bordet <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi,

with Jetty 9.2.x series minimum requirement of JDK 7, and Jetty 9.3.x
and 9.4.x series minimum requirement of JDK 8, we are thinking of
making JDK 11 the minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x.

With the rapid pace the JDK is released, by the time we stabilize and
complete the work on Jetty 10.x there are good chances that JDK 12
will be out already.

JDK 11 as minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x will also allow us to
clean up the codebase, drop JDK 8-only modules such as those for ALPN
on JDK 8, and use the JPMS Module APIs to explore new ways to deploy
web applications using JPMS modules.

Furthermore, JDK 9 and JDK 10 are basically already unmaintained, even
by OpenJDK vendors such as Oracle, Azul, RedHat, etc.

Now that JDK 11 is released officially, we think it's going to be the
main version people will use from now onwards, so it makes sense for
Jetty 10.x to have as minimum requirement JDK 11.

We post this email to welcome any feedback from the Jetty Community
about this decision.
If you think JDK 11 is a too strict minimum requirement for Jetty
10.x, speak now.

Webtide is - as always - supporting the Jetty project and customers
that want to move to newer Jetty versions and JDK versions.

Cheers
--
Simone Bordet
----
http://cometd.org
http://webtide.com
Developer advice, training, services and support
from the Jetty & CometD experts.
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev

_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Mark Mielke
In reply to this post by Guillaume Maillard
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:39 AM Guillaume Maillard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Could you eloborate on technical things related to JDK11 ?
As far I know, the Jetty core doesn't require a big number of "things" from the JDK.

A lot of deployment (as ours) use Jetty as embedded webserver and simply implement handlers.
Why should we switch all our code/build to JDK11 in such cases if no technical reasons could justify it?

The Jetty side of the equation is likely simpler, and could be optional features (TLS 1.3? although I suspect even this one will eventually get backported by Oracle into the extended support patches, just as they did with TLS 1.2).

The Java side... Oracle is aggressively pushing users, and especially businesses to either:
  1. Pay for a contract with Oracle.
  2. Upgrade to Java 11.
See here:


Note specifically the date January 2019, which is marked "Commercial User End of Public Updates".

This is no small matter. Everybody who uses Java needs to understand what this new policy means to them. People should already be preparing for which option they wish to consider. If you need Java 8 for commercial purposes beyond January 2019, you should be preparing to obtain a support contract from whoever you get Java from today if you have not already.

--
Mark Mielke <[hidden email]>


_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Guillaume Maillard
In reply to this post by Joakim Erdfelt-8
Correct/kill me if I am wrong :
- the garbage collector is not a JDK API but a JVM feature. It will not require changes in Jetty source code.
- TLS 1.3 is just a String parameter to configure SSLContext, no changes are required in Jetty.
- JPMS is not compatible with Java 8, but is mainly related to build packaging

So I don't see why Java 8 compatibility should be dropped if it's just a matter of release packaging.

Best regards,

Guillaume




Le jeu. 27 sept. 2018 à 17:19, Joakim Erdfelt <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Java 11 brings in TLS/1.3 for the first time.

It also has many more improvements with regards to TLS overall.

And a very nice GC.

Jetty has also been exploring / experimenting with JPMS.

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 9:39 AM Guillaume Maillard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Could you eloborate on technical things related to JDK11 ?
As far I know, the Jetty core doesn't require a big number of "things" from the JDK.

A lot of deployment (as ours) use Jetty as embedded webserver and simply implement handlers.
Why should we switch all our code/build to JDK11 in such cases if no technical reasons could justify it?

Best regards,

Guillaume




Le mer. 26 sept. 2018 à 15:17, Simone Bordet <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi,

with Jetty 9.2.x series minimum requirement of JDK 7, and Jetty 9.3.x
and 9.4.x series minimum requirement of JDK 8, we are thinking of
making JDK 11 the minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x.

With the rapid pace the JDK is released, by the time we stabilize and
complete the work on Jetty 10.x there are good chances that JDK 12
will be out already.

JDK 11 as minimum requirement for Jetty 10.x will also allow us to
clean up the codebase, drop JDK 8-only modules such as those for ALPN
on JDK 8, and use the JPMS Module APIs to explore new ways to deploy
web applications using JPMS modules.

Furthermore, JDK 9 and JDK 10 are basically already unmaintained, even
by OpenJDK vendors such as Oracle, Azul, RedHat, etc.

Now that JDK 11 is released officially, we think it's going to be the
main version people will use from now onwards, so it makes sense for
Jetty 10.x to have as minimum requirement JDK 11.

We post this email to welcome any feedback from the Jetty Community
about this decision.
If you think JDK 11 is a too strict minimum requirement for Jetty
10.x, speak now.

Webtide is - as always - supporting the Jetty project and customers
that want to move to newer Jetty versions and JDK versions.

Cheers
--
Simone Bordet
----
http://cometd.org
http://webtide.com
Developer advice, training, services and support
from the Jetty & CometD experts.
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev

_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Simone Bordet-3
In reply to this post by Guillaume Maillard
Hi,

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 4:39 PM Guillaume Maillard
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Could you eloborate on technical things related to JDK11 ?
> As far I know, the Jetty core doesn't require a big number of "things" from the JDK.

We need to use the Module APIs.
And drop things that we don't want to maintain anymore (such as ALPN for JDK 8).

> A lot of deployment (as ours) use Jetty as embedded webserver and simply implement handlers.
> Why should we switch all our code/build to JDK11 in such cases if no technical reasons could justify it?

You should switch because JDK 8 will be unmaintained by January 2019,
and JDK 9 and 10 are already unmaintained.
So either you remain on a possibly vulnerable JDK version, or you have
a paid JDK 8 version that the Jetty Project does not have access to.
You can stay on Jetty 9.4.x and JDK 8 if you want.

It won't be wise for the Jetty Project to stay on an unmaintained JDK
with its latest release.

--
Simone Bordet
----
http://cometd.org
http://webtide.com
Developer advice, training, services and support
from the Jetty & CometD experts.
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Simone Bordet-3
In reply to this post by Guillaume Maillard
Hi,

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 11:13 PM Guillaume Maillard
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Correct/kill me if I am wrong :
> - the garbage collector is not a JDK API but a JVM feature. It will not require changes in Jetty source code.
> - TLS 1.3 is just a String parameter to configure SSLContext, no changes are required in Jetty.
> - JPMS is not compatible with Java 8, but is mainly related to build packaging

Nope. JPMS is about module descriptors in source code that can only be
compiled with JDK 9+, it is about the Module API that we should use to
properly find/scan resources, and it is about verifying that the whole
new behavior of JDK 11 in many areas work with the latest Jetty
release (for example, class loading, resource finding, location of JDK
classes such as javax.transaction.UserTransaction, leveraging the
module system to give users more stable Jetty APIs, etc.).

It is a natural process for projects to advance and require higher and
higher JDK versions.
You can't work with JDK 1.3 and the latest Spring.

We will stay on JDK 8 minimum requirement for Jetty 9.4.x.

For Jetty 10.x, which will be out likely when JDK 12 will be out, I
struggle to find a reason why we should be 4 JDK versions behind and
on an unmaintained JDK 8 version.

--
Simone Bordet
----
http://cometd.org
http://webtide.com
Developer advice, training, services and support
from the Jetty & CometD experts.
_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [jetty-dev] Requiring JDK 11 for Jetty 10.x

Cantor, Scott
On 9/27/18, 5:23 PM, "[hidden email] on behalf of Simone Bordet" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

> For Jetty 10.x, which will be out likely when JDK 12 will be out, I
> struggle to find a reason why we should be 4 JDK versions behind and
> on an unmaintained JDK 8 version.

Moreover, he who writes the code sets the rules. Use what you need to use to address your development needs as long as the code works on a version of Java that is itself supported (i.e. not working on 11 when it's the only open supported option would be a bigger problem, even for Jetty 9.4).

-- Scott


_______________________________________________
jetty-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jetty-dev